Curse

Algren Cole · Jun 22, 2005, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

Just so I can clear up something in my mind Algren, does winning at Chess require skill?

yes....

JoDiamonds · Jun 22, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyle

You know it seems to me that the only real type of skill required in this game is picking the right skills for your skill set. Like a game of MTG.

So you want me to pick a game and tell you why I think it's better? That all depends on what sort of limits you put on it.. If it's simply player vs. player, then any fps or possibly even rts requires more skill than GW does.

If it's PvE then any MMORPG out there is better, why? They lasted more than 2 months with tons of content left to go.

If you want it to include PvP, PvE and be fantasy based, then to me it seems GW is the best, unfortunatly for us. Though many would argue WoW is better, I personally didn't like that game though.

Do you play Magic: The Gathering? There's an absurdly high level of skill involved in playing a deck, not just building one. The same is true in Guildwars, even if you are playing a "simple" tank character.

The skills involved in building a M:TG deck and GWs skill bar are somewhat similar. The actual play is wildly different, of course. Also wildly different are any RTS game, which is wildly different from FPS. It's hardly even reasonable to compare them, unless you focus on very specific things.

It's fine for one person to like RTS more, or FPS, or RPG, or whatever. But simply saying one class is better than another in general is misleading, because they can't be compared using the same scale.

FPS games require physical skills more than other games (hand-eye coordination, etc.) RTS games require the ability to multitask more than nearly any other computer game. CCGs (like M:TG) require logical pattern matching as well as on the spot creativity and innovation. Massive Online RPGs (for the PvP aspect) often require team coordination more than anything else, both in setting up your group and in actual play.

All of these games generally require some of the skills needed by the other games, but the focus is very different for each genre, and sometimes within the genre. I think it's just plain wrong to say that other games require more skill, especially as a simple blanket statement.

The first part of the question, "Why do you like other games more than GuildWars" could have been answered by saying that you think there is little skill required in GuildWars, which doesn't seem to be true. If there was little skill involved, the ladders would be extremely unstable -- no one would remain near the top. No one would hold the Hall of Heroes for more than a couple battles in a row, because nearly any team should have a 50% chance of beating them, if there's no skill involved.

As far as all other Massive Online games being better (in PvE) than GuildWars in general, that's absurd and almost obviously wrong. There have been some terrible games that weren't worth playing for a day, let alone the two months you claim GuildWars was good for. (Nevermind that it hasn't been out for two months yet.) Everyone's free to their opinions, but it doesn't sound like even you think GuildWars is the worst of the lot out there.

Anyway, I'd still happily pay $50 for a game that entertained me during all my free time for two months. I hope everyone feels they've gotten their money's worth, even if they don't love GuildWars above and beyond all other games.

Celes Tial · Jun 22, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

or maybe it's that PvP doesn't require skill at all....merely the thought process that says "Kill the MONK FIRST"....

as far as playing your guild...thank you but I'll pass

Did you miss the part where I said you wouldnt be able to kill our monk?

People have come up with much better strategies than yours and were not able to take me down.

Additionally, I suggest you try your 'strategy' in the Tombs and see how often you die. But you doubt you will, as you'd rather rant without having a clue, nor trying to get one.

Algren Cole · Jun 22, 2005, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celes Tial

Did you miss the part where I said you wouldnt be able to kill our monk?

People have come up with much better strategies than yours and were not able to take me down.

Additionally, I suggest you try your 'strategy' in the Tombs and see how often you die. But you doubt you will, as you'd rather rant without having a clue, nor trying to get one.

if you call what I posted a strategy....

Like i said when I get to the HoH i'll let you know if it changes my opinion of GW PvP...though I doubt it will.

sino-soviet · Jun 22, 2005, 05:52 PM // 17:52

So chess requires skill....while Guild wars PVP does not...interesting. Please, shine some light in my direction.

So player A in CS consistently beating player B...that is skill

Team A consistently beating team B in GW....what does that mean to you?

JoDiamonds · Jun 22, 2005, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

oh I'm gonna do HoH when I get their...just to reaffirm my belief that the PvP aspect of this game is a joke....and if it's not a joke you can be assured I'll come to the forums here and retract my statements. I'm not the type of person to complain just for the sake of complaining. Even if I DON'T like PvP in the HoH I'll be able to admit there is skill involved....if in fact there actually is any. All of the PvP i've done this far(which IS limited) has been "set trap...run behind my trap....fire arrows until someone dies or chases me through said trap....wait for everyone to die".

The sad thing is that you may, in fact, just be naturally talented at GuildWars PvP, and for you beating random pickup teams isn't challenging.

Also, is there anything you don't like about GuildWars PvP other than your assertion that it requires no skill? You do repeatedly say that "PvP is bad" or "PvP is a joke", and I'm wondering there's any problems besides the apparent skill level required.

Many teams can consistently beat other teams. (Maybe not absolutely every time, but that's a good thing anyways.) To me, this is pretty much proof that there is skill involved.

Aug · Jun 22, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

It won't, with your attitude. Don't waste your time.

Algren Cole · Jun 22, 2005, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by sino-soviet

So chess requires skill....while Guild wars PVP does not...interesting. Please, shine some light in my direction.

because chess requires thought and planning....my experience with GW PvP has required 0 thought and 0 planning.... I went outside to smoke while playing PvP and didn't die

JoDiamonds · Jun 22, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by sino-soviet

So chess requires skill....while Guild wars PVP does not...interesting. Please, shine some light in my direction.

You haven't pointed anything out. Please say something enlightening, especially when we are on the same side of the argument.

Seriously, let's change some of the words:
"So chess requires skill....while flipping a coin does not...interesting."

It's just true. <Competition A> might require skill while <Competition B> does not. Unless I've missed something and chess had been made into a subgame as part of GuildWars PvP, there's no obvious contradiction.

Algren Cole · Jun 22, 2005, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

The sad thing is that you may, in fact, just be naturally talented at GuildWars PvP, and for you beating random pickup teams isn't challenging.

Also, is there anything you don't like about GuildWars PvP other than your assertion that it requires no skill? You do repeatedly say that "PvP is bad" or "PvP is a joke", and I'm wondering there's any problems besides the apparent skill level required.

Many teams can consistently beat other teams. (Maybe not absolutely every time, but that's a good thing anyways.) To me, this is pretty much proof that there is skill involved.

I can understand that people enjoy PvP...I can even understand that some people think it requires skill...and hell it might require skill. But to me...games like this don't work for PvP...there's no entertainment. I've yet to die in a PvP match...i've yet to even be threatened with death in a PvP match...and yes I realize that it's just a PUG match when I'm playing in LA....but these peolpe are 3 levels(or more) ahead of me..... I don't know if there is a problem with PvP in this game...I just don't like the entire dynamic of the PvP aspect. You select skills...you equip those skills..then you point and click until everything is dead....it's just mind numbing.

sino-soviet · Jun 22, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

If what you say is true, it is painfully obvious the teams you were playing were inexperienced. I dont think you can judge the entire game based on your experiences in one of the most uncompetitive places possible.

Just as in a chess match, if I go and make random moves and win against an awful, inexperienced player, it does not exactly detract from skill required in chess. Your particular match may not have required skill, I assure you, but many other matches have.

And I'm sorry that GW pvp is not your type of entertainment.

Algren Cole · Jun 22, 2005, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by sino-soviet

If what you say is true, it is painfully obvious the teams you were playing were inexperienced. I dont think you can judge the entire game based on your experiences in one of the most uncompetitive places possible.

Just as in a chess match, if I go and make random moves and win against an awful, inexperienced player, it does not exactly detract from skill required in chess. Your particular match may not have required skill, but many other matches have.

but how does skill make "point and click" fun?

Loviatar · Jun 22, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

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Originally Posted by Algren Cole

I love Guild Wars....it's a really really good PvE game. so no...I don't think it sucks. I think it's value as a PvE is quite good....It's value as a PvP is quite poor.

thats partially what one Anet person said in an interview.

he said in many ways it could be considered a single player rpg that had the bonus of being playable with your friends or henchmen or a mix of both with options to pvp as well.

i am less than 1/3 of the way through (if a long mission is interupted by real life do over) but still feel that i have already gotten my moneys worth since i dont pay a monthly fee.

if/when i get tired of it it will be replaced with a book or anything else until the next chapter comes out and i will happily jump back in

to me it truly is just a game for enjoyment to pass idle time

Algren Cole · Jun 22, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

thats partially what one Anet person said in an interview.

he said in many ways it could be considered a single player rpg that had the bonus of being playable with your friends or henchmen or a mix of both with options to pvp as well.

i am less than 1/3 of the way through (if a long mission is interupted by real life do over) but still feel that i have already gotten my moneys worth since i dont pay a monthly fee.

if/when i get tired of it it will be replaced with a book or anything else until the next chapter comes out and i will happily jump back in

to me it truly is just a game for enjoyment to pass idle time

I've certainly gotten my money's worth and have no complaints on the PvE side of the game...even though the story line lacks any solid content...will I buy the expansion, probably not...for the simple fact that by the timet he expansion is available the new Zelda will be out and the next installment in the Final Fantasy series will be out....and I'll have no free time needed to be filled with Guild Wars.

sino-soviet · Jun 22, 2005, 06:12 PM // 18:12

I really don't like PVP THAT much either, its solid at best, a nice changeup from PVE. But when you think about it, pretty much every game is point and click. Hell, Warcraft III and Starcraft are point and click games. What defines if a game is fun or not are the choices being put into each point and each click. Thats where, I guess, people derive fun from any game.

Algren Cole · Jun 22, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by sino-soviet

I really don't like PVP THAT much either, its solid at best, a nice changeup from PVE. But when you think about it, pretty much every game is point and click. Hell, Warcraft III and Starcraft are point and click games. What defines if a game is fun or not are the choices being put into each point and each click. Thats where, I guess, people derive fun from any game.

I can agree with that....I guess I just don't think turn based fighting systems work for PvP....it just doesn't make logical sense to me.

Loviatar · Jun 22, 2005, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

I've certainly gotten my money's worth and have no complaints on the PvE side of the game...even though the story line lacks any solid content...will I buy the expansion, probably not...for the simple fact that by the timet he expansion is available the new Zelda will be out and the next installment in the Final Fantasy series will be out....and I'll have no free time needed to be filled with Guild Wars.

and i will hopefully have Elder Scrolls 4 : OBLIVION to jump into by then but i can still use each as a break for the other

Aug · Jun 22, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Chess is a turn based fighting system. It works. It think it might even pre-date your loved CS.

Not that I agree that GW is turn based. It very much is not. I've played turn based RPGs with PvP components (NWN on AOL, for example), and GW's combat system is not like that.

Algren Cole · Jun 22, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

and i will hopefully have Elder Scrolls 4 : OBLIVION to jump into by then but i can still use each as a break for the other

exactly..I take the game for what it's worth. It's been alot of fun...and I've got something like 100 hours of playtime out of it thus far and I'm only at Druids....but if someone asks if I like the PvP...I'm gonna tell them it's a pointless waste of time.

Spyle · Jun 22, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

This all simply boils down to what one percieves as "skill".

"Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience."

Through that definition, yes, GW does require skill. Someone who knows exactly what each skill does will have an enormous advantage over someone who has no clue. But match 2 players against eachother, both having the same knowledge of the game, is one going to win over the other because they are more skilled? I doubt it. At that point, it's probably down to luck.

Now look at a game like CounterStrike. Match 2 players against eachother, both having the same knowledge of the game. There is still a factor of luck here, bullets don't go straight 100% of the time, one player might luckily come up behind the other before them see him. One difference though, if one person entirely sucks at avoiding and/or aiming, he'll lose - luck or no luck.